Spoilers for this week’s episode of The Last of Us below

Ellie (Bella Ramsey) and Dina (Isabela Merced) have found love in a hopeless place. This week’s installment of The Last of Us sees the pair, on the hunt for Abby (Kaitlyn Dever), enter into the lush, overgrown city of Seattle without totally understanding what they’re getting into. As an intense cold open featuring the introduction of Isaac (Jeffrey Wright, reprising his role from the game) shows us, the duo is smack dab in the middle of an ongoing war between the WLF and the Seraphites. Oh, and there are still cordyceps zombies running around.

The episode, written by series co-creator Craig Mazin and directed by Kate Herron, allows for plenty of quiet moments and massive reveals amongst the warring factions—and for the long-simmering love between Ellie and Dina to blossom. After a harrowing sequence where Ellie gets bitten, she tells Dina about her immunity to the virus, and Dina responds that she’s pregnant before the two finally kiss. It’s a small ray of light in what’s otherwise been a bleak season for these characters.

Herron, no stranger to telling queer stories within genre fiction via her work on Loki, Doctor Who, and Sex Education, felt an extra level of pressure to make sure she nailed the episode given its massive importance to the story of the season. Ahead of the episode’s premiere, Herron jumped on Zoom to chat with GQ about how her love of the game got her in position to direct the episode, staging the episode’s massive action sequence, what it was like to work with Ramsey and Merced for those big emotional moments, and much more.

GQ: How did this opportunity first come your way?

Kate Herron: I honestly reached out to them. I did know the DP, Eben Bolter, from season one, who put a good word in for me, which is very nice of him. During lockdown, I bought a PlayStation. I’d only played Nintendo games, and I texted all my friends that loved PlayStation and was like, “Hey, what should I play?” I was filming Loki [Season One], living on my own in Atlanta, and I was like, “I’m going to get really into games and I’m going to try this” — as in PlayStation games. The Last of Us was at the top of everyone’s list. I played the first game, the prequel, and then the second game came out. All the games completely blew my mind in terms of what a game could be in terms of what it said about empathy and video gaming.

Even simple things, like the people you were going after had names. I was like, “Wow.” I remember thinking the characters were beautifully written. The way it moved me—when Joel died in the second game, I hadn’t lived with those games for as long as people [who] had played them for years, but I felt like someone I knew had died [laughs]. I was like, “Wow, okay.” It had a profound effect upon me, that game. I remember at the time they were making the first season, and I was so excited to see that.

Anyway, cut to obviously after the first season, and I meet them for the second season. The amazing thing was, I was so nervous, so I was early for the call. But Neil [Druckmann] was also really early, and so I just got to talk to him on Zoom. It felt like so much longer [but] it was probably five minutes, but I remember just thinking in my head, “Look, if I don’t get this job, I got to talk to Neil Druckman for five minutes and that was really cool.” [laughs] When I met them, I was showing them I had a vinyl from the game, the soundtrack from the first season. I have a statue of Ellie in my office back in England. I had a lot of stuff, and I was like, “Look, I love the game. This is what I love about it.” I loved the TV show because I found it so interesting—the places where they stuck to the game, but also where they’ve expanded or surprised us and done different things.

Then they were like, “Yes, we would love you to direct on it.” I later found out that I’d be directing episode four, which I was thrilled about.

What was it like to step into the show at such a critical point? There’s a lot going on in this episode. Even in the wake of episode two—this is just as important as that one, but for different reasons.

I was excited, but I was also like, “Okay, I have to make sure that I get this right.” For me, this is an episode that gets you on board, or at least along for the ride at the beginning, with Ellie and Dina’s decision to go to Seattle to avenge Joel’s death. That was really important. And also introducing us to this whole new part of the world that we haven’t seen before. Ellie and Dina, they don’t quite know what they’re going into. They don’t realize that they’re going into the middle of this war. They don’t know exactly who the WLF are. They dunno who the Seraphites are. It’s very important to give them hints of, yes, they’ve met very dangerous people before, but the people they’re dealing with here are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, and more dangerous than the infected, at times. That was very key to establish here. Then obviously Ellie and Dina’s relationship, and also Isaac. There was a lot to introduce and a lot to launch in this episode, but I was very up for the challenge.

The Last of Us director Kate Herron on set

Sarah Mangum

Speaking of Jeffrey Wright, that’s a hell of an introduction, both in terms of the cold open and then his cooking scene. That interrogation, in particular, is already intense. What were the conversations between you, Craig, and Neil about how you wanted to address it tonally?

In terms of the second scene, it was important to see Isaac, see what he’s done to this person and you’re like, “I don’t know. He doesn’t seem like a completely good guy.” I think you should be afraid, because you need to feel afraid of Isaac. He is the direct threat to Ellie and Dina. He’s in charge, and that’s very important to seed. This is what he’s capable of, it’s harrowing, and it also gives you a sense of the war that’s happening and how both sides feel.

It is a very heavy scene to film, and it also gives you insight into Isaac’s mind. This person is quite ruthless in getting what information they want, and if they don’t get what they want, this is what the consequences are going to be.

From a framing standpoint, the exterior shots feel more stable than the interior shots, which are handheld. What was the process behind that approach?

We’re handheld across the show, but there was definitely a level of the camera feeling, not necessarily always on Steadicam, but definitely a sense of [it]. When they’re outside, you have these amazing views of the city. That was always very important to me, in terms of capturing how the game felt. I remember going into Seattle and being blown away by these epic apocalyptic landscapes. That was important, across the show, to find those moments. Where do we bring scale in? So many of the scenes are inside, and these intimate conversations, whether that’s Ellie playing “Take on Me,” which is a much more joyful scene, or yes, an interrogation inside a kitchen. That is the thing that I enjoyed about this episode: you are getting so many private moments with all these characters, so it has to feel quite intimate. But yes, obviously, anytime I could [I wanted to] remind people that no, they’re in this incredible-looking apocalyptic wasteland.

Those visuals really stood out. And not that the show hasn’t paid attention to the production design before, but there’s an added level of care that comes with having to establish Seattle for the first time. Like in the shop when you’re spotlighting all those records.

For me, I love the game, and I would pick up everything I could and go look at it. Craig and me are very similar in that we’re very detail-oriented people, and he writes such great descriptions in his scripts. I’d be like, “Great, I’m going to try and film it then.” The music shop, like you said, our production design is amazing. I didn’t want to waste that. I love all that texture, and there’s something so cool about them going to this forgotten Seattle, particularly because we obviously see a very different Seattle in our world. I was like, “What would that look like?”

We wanted this overgrown garden where Ellie plays guitar, and I remember saying, “Oh, could I add a caterpillar because I think that would be cool?” Craig was like, “Yes!” It’s the kind of thing that you normally pitch, and you’re like, “They’re never going to let me do that.” But he was into it. That was the nice thing with Craig, it did feel very collaborative, but that’s the joy of his writing, he’s so detailed in everything, and with Neil, with the game as well, that it’s such a detailed world. I loved that the more you explored the world, the more you got rewarded.

The scene in the music shop is a really special moment. What was it like on set filming that sequence, and what went into it?

For us, it was about getting the level of confidence right. There’s so much going on for Ellie, because obviously, Joel and Ellie, the guitar is something that ties those two together emotionally. You can’t help but feel that. Also, you’ve got these two characters who are grieving someone that they love still. That’s still very heavy in the air. So to give them a moment—one way, yes, it feels very like these two young people. Like, who doesn’t want to play guitar for their crush? You know what I mean? That felt very sweet. But for me, the actors, and Craig, it was honestly talking about [the] why.

Courtesy of HBO

Courtesy of HBO

I remember talking to Bella, and they agreed, and I was like, “Why don’t we do a take where you don’t make eye contact with Dina? You’re just a bit shy.” So I had a shy take, and then I did some that were more confident. We always knew the emotional space that we wanted to sit in, but as a director, you’re always going to try and get all these different options. Cause that’s why you film it, right? Then, in the edit, you have a chance to work out the right level for it.

For us, it was just such a joy to film. It was weirdly one of those scenes that was the most intimidating. I remember in the game, that’s such an iconic moment. I was so excited I got that moment, but at the same time, I was like, “Okay, I have to get this right.”

Was there any desire to play around with the structure of how it looked? Did you consider doing it as a oner, or was it always going to be cut and edited the way it ended up?

We hadn’t ever planned it as a one-take. I think sometimes you might find those on the day, you’ll be like, “Oh, actually let’s do this. It feels rhythmically correct for the scene.” Or if it’s a big action scene and you’re like, “Yeah, let’s just go for it and try and Children of Men this.” For the “Take on Me” scene, no. I always think of that image from the game, that’s really iconic of Ellie playing the guitar in that space. I wanted to match that shot.

Other than that, for me, it was always about making sure the emotions felt grounded and real. With any adaptation, particularly, for example, a completely different mood, but the subway sequence. We’re doing something very different to the game there. The challenge for me there was remembering how I felt. The TV station scene, that’s set during the day in the game, and in our show it’s at night, but I loved that it was at night. For me, it’s way more scary. It makes me way more intimidated by the WLF and the Seraphites at the same time. It was really important, in that moment, that Ellie and Dina felt very intimidated by this war that they’d walked into and aware that they have no idea what exactly is happening between these people.

With the subway, I had the time of my life planning that. I remember saying to Craig—I got to do a jump scare in Loki, but obviously Loki’s a very different tone. I was like, “Can I add a jump scare into this?” He was like, “Yes.” Then I was just pitching him ideas, and we were building that together. It was just about capturing that adrenaline, tension, and that feeling of I’ve got to get out of here. In the game, I remember being like, “Wow, I’ve got to get through this as quickly as I can cause it’s so dangerous, and feeling that for the characters as well. For me, it’s always about capturing the mood of something and then bringing that into our world.

Speaking of the subway sequence, that scene plays out differently in the game. You’re crawling through a vent overhead, just seeing and hearing it amongst these red flares. As a fan of the game, was finding a way to incorporate something you wanted to do for the setpiece?

The red flares were always so important to me and Craig to incorporate. There was never a debate about whether it would be red flares or not. It was always just, yes, this is the red flare sequence. That was always set in stone, but obviously, we knew what we were doing would feel different. It’s always that thing, if you’re going to go away from the game, you have to give people something that feels worthwhile in doing that. For us, it was like, “Okay, we’re not going to do exactly what the game did, so let’s give people a really exciting chase through the train.” That’s where we landed, basically, because the most key thing in that sequence is that Dina needs to believe Ellie is infected. There’s this huge danger from the humans, and then you are like, “Man, this is terrible. Let’s go hide in the subway.” Then it’s like, “Oh, wait, no, actually you forgot. There’s a huge amount of infected as well that are also going to be an issue for you.” It was a fun way to balance both threats to them.

What were some of the challenges of working through the train sequence? I assume space is a big one.

Oh gosh. I would say timing. In terms of, we are really shaking the train carriage. We’re sending our actors through it. We’ve got a lot of stunt actors who are all brilliant, throwing themselves through windows, but obviously, with the nature of that, you can only do that so many times. For me, it was planning that sequence very, very heavily with my DP and being very clear and concise on exactly what me and Catie [Goldschmidt], the DP, wanted to do. The biggest challenge with any of those sequences, and also because sometimes you have to shoot stuff out of order, is as a director, knowing exactly how those are going to fit into the puzzle, essentially, once you’re in the edit. That was logistically the most complicated thing, but luckily, we have a very good team.

Is that one of the larger action sequences that you’ve shot? I know Loki had its moments.

Oh, yeah. For sure. The closest I had in Loki was that oner around Lamentis in episode three. That’s the closest I’d had in terms of scale, with stuff falling over, a huge amount of stunt actors running around. With all those sequences, honestly, because I’m such a planner, those sequences will go as smoothly as you plan them to go. That was very key for all of us, me and all the team. We got those train carriages early. We went in them, we had a look at them with our stunts team. The stunts team were pitching stuff for how they could move through, and it was a real collaboration. Everyone could see the intention of the shots and what I was thinking. With something like that, you’re always planning. I had the time in my life. I love horror. I love that game, and I was just really excited to go on something like that. I was like, “Now I get to show I could do this.”

How did you, Bella, and Isabela approach those reveals at the end of the episode?

We took our time in discussing it. We did do quite a few takes on that. We got brilliant performances, but it was just about making sure. Bella, they were very focused on making sure that Ellie’s emotion felt true in that sequence. That was something that was really important to all of us. You needed to feel that Ellie was really fighting for their life and believing that Izzy might shoot her as well because she doesn’t know that Ellie is immune. Also, when Ellie says that, it’s like “That sounds like a lie someone would say if they were about to be shot.” It was finding the right levels in that, and the moments when, oh, actually Dina does believe her now, but you don’t know that. You don’t know that until they kiss.

I’d say, weirdly, that was one of our most challenging scenes to film because, yes, as you said, there’s a lot of payoffs, but there’s also a lot of trust on both sides. That was very important to give us time to find that together.

Was there one particular moment, either from Isabella or Bella, that cracked open their interpretation of it? Or is it just the culmination of all of that discussion and planning?

The culmination of it, because Bella and Izzy are such fantastic actors. I was every day, blown away by stuff they would do. Just their resilience, because obviously for so much of my episode I’m like, “Okay, you’re running this way, you’re jumping on this, you’re crawling.”

You throw them through the wringer.

[laughs] Yeah! It’s raining, it’s night, and it’s 3:00 AM, but we’re having a good time. You know what I mean? It was always a surprise, every day, working with them. Not that I didn’t know they were brilliant, but just because they are brilliant, so they’re going to do stuff that always surprises you on camera. In terms of the emotion, yes, we had lots of long conversations with the three of us and Craig before, talking about the scripts and about the intention. By the time you were on set, we knew what we wanted to find, but it was giving ourselves the space and time to make sure we found it.

Did you use an intimacy coordinator for the scene with Ellie and Dina? What did they bring to the sequence that was helpful?

Yeah, we did. We had an intimacy coordinator for this sequence and also for the interrogation sequence with Isaac. They just help elevate the work and make sure that everyone feels comfortable with what we’re doing. It’s the same as if you have—I always think of a stunt choreographer, they’re there to help make the action look awesome, but also keep people safe. It’s the same with a dance choreographer as well. An intimacy coordinator is there to make sure that any intimacy feels grounded and truthful, but also that people can go home at the end of the day and feel as though it is work. And it should be. I think that everyone felt comfortable with what we filmed and keeping that conversation open, and that there’s space for someone to be like, “Actually, I wasn’t sure about this. Could I watch it or see?” I worked on Sex Education, so I’d worked with a lot of intimate scenes on that TV show, so I’m quite well versed in it. I think they’re so helpful.

Tonally, this episode swings in a couple of different directions, between the love story and the action sequence. How are you trying to balance and manage those tones across the episode?

For me, with tone, because I’ve done quite a lot of tonal jumping around, I always think about it like a music scale. You have to gradually build up to those moments. You can’t get to the subway straight away. You need the TV station before that to earn the subway. “Take on Me” is this really quiet, intimate scene. But you don’t get that without having them first walk through Seattle. There’s a sense of unease because they see all the skeletons, but at the same time, there’s a sense of, “Okay, they’re definitely alone in this place.” So when they go into the music shop and that’s happening with the song, we are not telling the audience to be scared there.

We’re telling them, “No, you can enjoy this with the characters because we’ve told you in this moment that they’re not under threat.” With the tones, that’s always what you’re going to do. Then, you reset it. You cut to Jeffrey in a kitchen, and it’s like, “Oh, actually, the tone has gone in this direction now.” For me, when stuff tonally sometimes feels jarring, it’s when you’re trying to put such different tones opposite each other, and that’s where it can feel jarring. Whereas when you gradually build up to stuff, you can earn them more.

In terms of you as a filmmaker, how important is it for you to be able to put your stamp on and help tell these kind of queer stories?

Look, I was massively flattered and excited that they gave me episode four. I think that it’s a massive privilege to get to tell stories like this because so often when I was growing up, most queer stories were in very specific queer media. There were a few in big mainstream shows, but not many. What’s so exciting to me about The Last of Us is that this is in a massive show that is watched by many people. At the center, you have these two characters, it’s a queer love story, and it gives as much space as you would see for any other love story normally. It was a massive privilege and very exciting, and I’m very proud of the work.

In the trajectory of your career so far, you’ve worked a lot in genre. What is it about genre that keeps you coming back to it or keeps you excited to play in those worlds?

It’s what I love watching. I’ve always been drawn to sci-fi and fantasy. I don’t know, so many of my favorite films, like, I love Alien, Starship Troopers, Galaxy Quest. They’re all so different, those films I just listed, but I love fantastical worlds, a fantastical story, like The Princess Bride. I like the escapism of watching something like that, but then I’m always so led by character. If you’re going to give me a world like that, give me a cool character that I can get on board with. Maybe they have an aspect of their personality, even though our lives are so different, that I can relate to, and I can be like, “Oh, I understand this. They feel like that could be me.”

I love genre. It’s so much fun. As a director, I’ve been very lucky. You walk on these sets and you feel like you’re standing on an alien planet or in the middle of your favorite video game. I just love it.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask how The Sims was coming along. Where are you in that process?

We’re all very excited about it. I’m busy writing on it, and we’re just working away on it. But it’s going well. Everyone’s feeling very good and excited.